Episode 186: The Comparison Trap After Success | Jen Recla on Leadership

Guest: Jen Recla — leadership coach and founder of Recla Coaching & Consulting, helping senior leaders build resilient, high-performing teams after nearly 15 years across healthcare, nonprofit, and public sector organizations.

Episode Summary

Two years into a business that is genuinely working, Jen Recla noticed the comparison spiral getting louder instead of quieter. This episode explores why success can intensify self-doubt rather than resolve it, and what it takes to trust a foundation you built yourself instead of one an organization built for you.

This one is for the coach or business owner who has real results and still catches themselves measuring against someone else's highlight reel.

Key takeaways:

• The Comparison Trap: why the spiral got sharper as Jen's results improved, not calmer.
• Structure as the Downstream of Self-Trust: the difference between borrowing stability from a corporate title and generating it internally.
• The Lobby and the Inner Room: what changes when "am I doing enough" gets asked from curiosity instead of verdict.
• The Gap and the Gain: measuring progress from where you started instead of the distance still ahead.
• Data Over Drama: treating a quiet season as information instead of proof of failure.
  

Guest Bio and Links

Jen Recla is a leadership coach, trainer, and outdoor enthusiast who brings a spirit of adventure to leadership, backed by nearly 15 years of experience across healthcare, nonprofit, and public sector organizations. A former learning and development director, she now helps senior leaders work smarter, lead with confidence, and build high-performing, resilient teams through her practice, Recla Coaching & Consulting.

Website: https://www.jenrecla.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenniferrecla/
Free Tool: No Time to Think? Start Here! — https://www.jenrecla.com/notimetothink

Full Transcript

Dawn: All right. Welcome back to the Self-Trust Solution Podcast. I'm your host, Dawn Ledet, the self-trust coach, and today I'm joined by Jen Recla. Jen is a leadership coach, trainer, and outdoor enthusiast who brings a spirit of adventure to leadership, backed by nearly 15 years of experience across healthcare, nonprofit, and public sector organizations. As the founder of Recla Coaching and Consulting, she helps senior leaders work smarter, lead with confidence, and build high performance, resilient teams. But what I'm excited to explore today is something I think so many leaders and entrepreneurs quietly experience: the tension between building something successful and still not fully trusting that it's enough, or that you're enough. So Jen, I'm so glad that you're here today.

Jen Recla: Thank you so much, Dawn, for inviting me. I've really been looking forward to this conversation.

Dawn: So you shared that you're in a season where your business is actually going well, and yet there's still some tension around trusting the foundation you've built. Take us into that. What does that look like externally, and what's happening internally?

Jen Recla: Yes, absolutely. So I just wrapped up my second year of business, and I'm entering my third year of business. In the first year of the business, lots of ebbs and flows, and I didn't have high expectations. I went in really looking at that first year as a grounding year. I'm not going to try to shoot for the sky. I'm really just going to focus on building a good foundation for myself, and what was so important for me to hold onto is this harmony between my work and life. I didn't want to leave the corporate world to then step into a space where I'm working all the time and I'm stretching myself too thin.

So I went in with that mindset and expectation. Now, whether that stays throughout the year, that's the hard part. So I've definitely had moments where I felt at ease, I've got this. And then I think where the self-trust and the doubts come into play, and my self-trust starts to break apart, is in the comparison trap.

There's so much out there on social media especially, because that's one of the avenues I use to try to reach my audience, where there are individuals like me. And there are some that are years ahead, and there are some that are behind, and so there's this constant comparison of, "Oh, well, they're speaking at this thing, and they just got all of these coaching clients, and they look like they're so successful. Wait a minute, how long have they been in business? They've only been in business for six months. What?" And so there's that downward spiral into self-doubt that happens.

I would say it's gotten harder actually as I've gotten more successful, because I've gotten this taste of what it could feel like if things are steadily coming in and there's momentum and movement, and then all of the sudden it stops and it's quiet. And you're wondering, "Did I do something wrong? Have I not been building? Can I trust what I've built? Can I trust the system that I've put in place? Everything's fine. Everything's fine." So it's just this, it's like these two little people sitting on my shoulder that are constantly going back and forth, and there's one that's staying in the growth mindset space, and reminding myself that I am playing the long game, and then there's this other little inner critic.

Actually, I have an actual figure that sits on my desk. I don't know if you can see this, but it's a little pink monster. This is that little inner critic for me. And it's just a reminder that it's a silly thing, and I can move past it, and I don't have to hold onto it.

And I will say, physically too, to get through a lot of that, I need to move. When I find myself in that space where I am experiencing more fear and doubt, it is harder for me to get up and move. And so that, for me, is a red flag that I need to push through and do it, because it's the thing that will bring me some clarity.

Dawn: So you mentioned that before you were in corporate. What are you noticing about yourself that's similar, and what's different as you are now going into your third year of business?

Jen Recla: Such a good question. I will say that my values have stayed solid. My top two values are fun and adventure. One of the reasons why I went out on my own is because of those two values, and really wanting to spread that fun and adventure to other leaders and teams. And working within corporate, I do feel like I was able to do it, but only to an extent, within certain guardrails. And now that I have been able to move into a space where I am providing services, development to a number of external organizations, there feels like there's more freedom in being able to fully show up in that space and embody those values. So I would say it's a level of freedom.

With that, I would say a lot of similarities are the way that I work. So when I was working in corporate, I was leading teams for many years, and this idea of work/life integration and harmony was very important to me then as well. I did not want to work all the time. I'd worked with too many leaders who I saw sacrificing themselves, time with their family, time to just decompress and recharge, and I never wanted that for myself. So I built structures while I was working in corporate to ensure that I was working a healthy, sustainable schedule, taking time off, setting good boundaries, saying no to the right things, and role modeling that and encouraging others to do the same.

So that has been the same for me. That first week of work, I set a schedule for myself. I set structure for my days. The same practices that I did internally I've done with the business as well, and that has helped me to sustain a very healthy, sustainable schedule. I would say that is one of the biggest similarities.

Dawn: Did you find yourself comparing while you were in corporate as you found yourself doing in your business?

Jen Recla: Comparing how I show up in corporate to where I am now?

Dawn: No, comparing to others.

Jen Recla: No, that's a reflection I had not thought about before. I think this is the first time that I... besides my time when I was acting. So when I was in the acting space many, many years ago, yes, there was a huge comparison game. So I'm probably the unease and some of my self-trust, self-doubt journey that I'm experiencing now is more similar to my experience in my 20s when I was living in Hollywood and trying to be an actor. It's interesting to see those parallels. I feel much more confident and self-assured and mature. I've learned a lot, but there's still some of that that's coming back.

Dawn: It's so interesting to notice that, because often when we're experiencing it, it'd be really interesting to know the difference between when you were on your own acting, on your own in business, compared to not having that comparison in corporate.

Jen Recla: Yeah. And I'm thinking about some of the major differences there. One is the support system. When I moved out to California, I didn't have a support system. I had to create that support system because my family was back on the East Coast. And so I had to build friendships, and that's really hard right out of college. And I wasn't as confident, as self-assured in who I was to even make those friendships. And now I've got a support system. I have a family, I have kids. I have a neighborhood where I've created a community of people. So I think that support system is key.

And then structure. I didn't have a lot of structure in place. I'd wake up and, what am I going to do today if I didn't have anything on my plate? To now I have more things scheduled. Not everything, but I have a plan. I'm more thoughtful about and intentional about what I say yes to. And I wasn't at that time. So I think those are some differences that are definitely helping me.

Dawn: That's great. It is part of that, there's a difference between placing our safety in the structure and in, like, corporate, versus when you have to create it your own. That's where self-trust and identity gaps really tend to show up. And it's not a bad thing. It's not a judgment. We all do it. We all have it. But it's good to notice that, because all along, even when you were in corporate, the true safety and security came from you and your ability to work within the confines of the structure. And so in our own businesses, the structure becomes the downstream of our self-trust.

Jen Recla: Mm-hmm. Is creating that to be able to work through. As you're talking, there's something else I think that has been a significant change in who I am today compared to 22-year-old Jen, and that is my own self-discovery journey. Who I am, what my strengths are, what my talents are, and really leaning into those. That's been a huge part of my work. After I left that and moved to corporate and started getting into learning and development and leading teams and teaching workshops and coaching, part of that journey was understanding what gifts I bring and then what areas are really draining for me, and how do I surround myself with people who have gifts that I don't. And so understanding and relying on my strengths has been huge for helping me to get through these ebbs and flows.

Dawn: Absolutely. I think that's a big piece of what self-trust really is. It's not necessarily what everyone thinks, which are the downstream moments, or the expression of self-trust, which is whether you follow through on what you say. And basically that's what most people think it is, right? But truly, that is an expression of self-trust, but it's not how you necessarily build it. It's once you choose it, that's what happens. But also it is that really honest, open vision of yourself, knowing yourself so fully, where you know you want to surround yourself with someone that has a strength that just isn't yours. Doesn't make your strengths any less powerful. It doesn't make you any less, period. It's that really beautiful vision of, here's who I am, owning it and claiming it so fully, and bringing in what helps accentuate that, support it.

Jen Recla: Yeah. Absolutely. It's so good.

Dawn: You had listed some questions that many people carry, I think. Like, "Am I doing enough? Will anyone show up? Is this sustainable?" Which of those questions tend to get, or used to, or still do get loudest for you?

Jen Recla: Probably the "am I doing enough." I think, even though I know I'm doing enough, I've actually been more intentional about what I say yes and no to. But I think that's when the comparison trap comes into play. And I'll see other people doing things that I think I should be doing, and why am I not doing that? So the "am I doing enough" is probably that question that comes first for me. And then "no one's there" as well is that other one.

Dawn: I don't know if you're familiar with my work, but there's the Lobby, which is where, what people will often describe as basically everything: it's our all-or-nothing thinking, it's the voices of people we love, it's the voices of people who have said things to us that we don't love but we still carry, it's our own insecurities and our doubts, it's our excitement, our passion. It sort of vibrates a little bit more wildly in a way. It's in those extremes. And then there's the Inner Room, which is where our wisdom and our intuition and that quiet calm and our peace and where our higher power voice speaks to us as well. And so if your Inner Room were to answer, "Am I doing enough?" how would you answer?

Jen Recla: Oh, 100%. Am I doing plenty? Also, "will anyone show up" — I think that's a lower question for me. That definitely does come to mind for me.

Dawn: What was the other one you said?

Jen Recla: The other one, "does anybody care," that really comes up with me.

Dawn: Yes, yes. Which kind of leads into the "will anyone show up," right? Because if they don't care, they're not going to show up.

Jen Recla: Yeah, that one comes up a lot too. I was thinking about the "am I enough," and how it spreads beyond the business, being a mom as well, and thinking about not just my role in my business, my role as a leader, my role as a mother, my role as a friend. I think it permeates across all of the different roles as well, and so that probably is why that comes up for me too. Like, "am I doing enough? Am I enough for people?"

Dawn: And how would you answer it in those other areas?

Jen Recla: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. 100%.

Dawn: I love that you said that, because you say it as if it makes it more like a something bigger in your life almost.

Jen Recla: Instead of, "Oh, it's just a question that I'm not answering." I have the answer. It's just in those moments I don't answer it, and so my brain goes searching for, "oh, what are the ways that I'm not."

Dawn: So now you know. You just answer it when that question comes up.

Jen Recla: Exactly. Well, I just picture: what would I say to myself? Or what would I say to someone that would say that to me? Well, this is what I would say: "Of course you're doing enough."

Dawn: So good. I mean, and the truth is, I sort of don't agree with the labeling of "inner critic." I think that we have an opportunity to just relate to our entire self, instead of dividing ourselves up into these different personalities that are either good or bad. So if we hear "Am I doing enough?" with true curiosity, we can answer, "Yes," or, "Oh, here's a couple of things that I want to try." It's so different than when we ask it in that tone, and I love to remind people, your inner dialogue doesn't have a tone. We have to assign one. It's just words going across your mind, right? And so if you give yourself permission to just pause, it makes sense that I'm hearing it as a critic, because maybe that's how I've always identified. What if we just heard that question with curiosity? Like a real question. How do I want to answer it? And that opportunity, it doesn't have to always be just "yes." It may always be "yes" for you. But it may also just say, "Oh, you know what? Here's something that I'm seeing that I'd actually like to try."

Jen Recla: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's something that certainly helped me, leaning into curiosity. It's a huge thing that I promote in coaching conversations, in leadership conversations. Staying curious, asking the questions. Even, is "Am I doing enough?" the right question? Right? So exploring other questions. Why am I focused on this? Maybe it's not "am I doing enough?" It's, "am I doing the right things in the right areas?" That's a different question, and a different one to tackle. It feels less critical to me, and much more actionable. Something that I can collect specific data on.

Dawn: Yeah, I mean, it's all an invitation to data, right? It's either an invitation to affirm — is the way I invite people to. It's either an invitation to affirm yourself. So maybe it really is just saying, like, here's — I'm inviting you to say, yes, you are doing it. I'm inviting you to affirm this path, this goal, yourself. Or it's an invitation to see a different perspective. Is there data here telling me that there's a shift needed? It's not really questioning me as a human, or as a mom, a spouse, a friend, a coach, a business owner. It's just inviting me to look at what, if anything, needs to be adapted, adjusted, released, or added.

Jen Recla: Yeah. Yeah. And I know when I don't step into curiosity, because that's when emotions — I get overwhelmed, the emotions bubble up, and I take it out on the wrong people.

Dawn: You said that there was this maybe summer spiral in 2024. Tell us more about that.

Jen Recla: Yeah, that was when I first started the business. I really... This was where I was battling the tension between, "You're just starting. Don't have too huge of expectations. This is a year of building." And then the other tension of, "I need to be doing all of these things. Why are things not moving fast enough? Why are people not reaching out to me?" It was that tension. And there was also that summer a lot going on with setting kids up with summer camp, and there were times where there weren't summer camp, so me taking care of them. And it was just balancing my caregiver role with the kids and their needs, and making sure that I was making time for my spouse, and really being excited about building something and wanting to spend all of my time doing that. So there was just this tension, I think, between my roles and between really embracing this growth mindset, playing the long game. It's going to take time to build. I was struggling with that.

Dawn: So how did you adjust, or what did you do to move forward?

Jen Recla: Yeah, so I spent a lot of time outdoors. I love nature. Adventure, one of my top values. So spending time outdoors really helped. I'd go for walks. Building breaks in my day was essential, so that I didn't just keep going, because I knew I was going to lose myself if I did that. I also would talk with other people. I used this as an opportunity — the comparison game, I was definitely doing a lot of the comparison game, and instead of internalizing that and getting stuck in it, I reached out to those individuals and said, "Hey, would you mind connecting? I'd love to learn about what you're doing." And so I used those opportunities as a chance to connect with people and learn. And that helped me too, because I was moving to action, and it was the movement, from moving forward, having steps that I could take, that really helped pull me out of it as well.

At the end of the summer, I didn't show up exactly the way that I wanted to, so it was a reflection point for me too. And that's another thing I've built into my practice, is having reflection points at least quarterly, where I'm really taking a step back to say, "Okay, what's working? What's not working? What do I need to stop doing? What do I need to start? What do I need to continue? How do I want to show up differently?" So really getting curious with myself, because that's something I used to do in corporate when I was leading teams. So I'm trying to take some of those best practices that worked for me and focus there.

The other thing that really helped me is I read this book called The Gap and the Gain, and the concept in that book is, instead of getting sucked into the gap between where you are now and your ideal, focus on the progress that you've made. So that was another important piece for me, is making sure that I'm reflecting, and then celebrating the progress along the way.

Dawn: Yes, it's so important. That idea of comparing yourself to where you want to go, it serves like a brick wall in front of you, because you always feel like you're not there yet. And that shows up in so many ways in the work that I see in my clients. And really, when we look from how far we've come, it serves as this like wind behind us that helps to propel — because it shows that we are always evolving, expanding, and growing. And so even the mistakes, even the missteps, even the gap, is purposeful.

Jen Recla: Well, and it helps me — thinking about the progress, it helps me then approach the gaps between here and my next goal with more curiosity, looking at it like a scientist. What data do I need to collect? What data do I already have that's telling me I'm on track or not on track? That approaching my business like a scientist, experimentation, exploration — that's another thing that has really helped as well. Because when there's a failure, I look at it more objectively, and it's easier for me not to let my emotions drive things and to take things personally.

Dawn: Totally. Yes. We talk about data versus drama at the Self Trust Coach, and really utilizing, there's five specific kinds of data that you can extract from every result. Good, bad, indifferent, it is. And that is what fuels the forward movement, so that you are closing that gap so much faster than when you're circling in drama, and remaking the same decisions that you've already made, and questioning them.

Jen Recla: Yeah. And these are things I help leaders walk through, and so that makes it easier for me to take my own advice, because I'm coaching and teaching towards those things, so I'm constantly reinforcing the concepts that I also want to make sure that I'm seeing in myself, and following through myself.

Dawn: So good. All right, we're going to go backwards now. You shared there was a season in your 20s, moving back from Hollywood after pursuing acting, feeling shame around that experience. What did that chapter teach you that still supports you now?

Jen Recla: Yeah. So when I moved back, I felt — shame is probably the best word. I just felt embarrassed and I felt shame, because this is something that I'd wanted to do for most of my life. I'd been talking about being a movie star and being in films and acting since I was five years old, and everything I did from the time I was five till 25 was focused around building a career in that space. And so coming back after that, I just felt so deflated, and I had no idea what I wanted to do next.

And I will say one thing that I come back to over and over again, when I get into these moments where I'm feeling really down and it feels like I'm losing hope, I've got to move to action. I've got to focus on the things that are within my control, within my influence, and move forward from there. So it was really that piece that I've continued using throughout my life and my career. Any time I've hit a wall, I've hit some kind of barrier, or something happened that didn't go as planned, it's coming back to this idea of: what's within my control, what can I do next, what is one step that I can do?

And that was a lot of what I did. It was just these baby steps. Well, I can go get a temp job, and I can figure out where I'm going to live, and I can reach out to some people I haven't talked to in a while, because I'd moved back from California to Maryland. And it was just these little steps that, over time, built something into this career that I'm at now, where I'm focused on leadership and team development. And I continue to do that. I continue to come back to: what's one action I can take, even if it's small, what's one action that I can take? Because that progress is motivating. That's what's going to keep me going.

So I'd say that was something that was pretty huge for me that I carry, too. And I ended up working as a temp for this amazing woman. She was a great mentor, a great leader, and she's the one that really got me interested in leading and developing leaders, and coaching and leading teams. At the time, I was working in operations management. Knew that's what I did not want to do moving forward, but she really opened my eyes to possibilities, and so I constantly come back to her investment in me as a leader. She was great at challenging me. She was great at supporting me with compassion. And that combination of compassion and pushing me to grow is also something that I continue to carry with me in my own practice today, too. So I think those are the two things that really stand out to me.

Dawn: I love how you say that every time you go through this — I think you described it as a roller coaster — you get a little stronger. So how has your relationship with uncertainty changed?

Jen Recla: I would say that I definitely embrace it a lot. I accept that uncertainty is a constant, and I think that this is something that I learned at a pretty young age, because when I was three, I started dance lessons, and I started getting on stage. I participated in different recitals and pageants. So taking risks and trying new things — my parents got me into shows, into plays. It just never occurred to me to say no and not try. Who knows what's going to happen, but I didn't get lost in that uncertainty. And so I think that that has also helped to build my resilience, even in those moments where I do have self-doubt and I question myself, and I'm not sure what's going to happen next. I think about previous times that I've been through this, and I've gotten on the other side, and it's actually made me better. So each door that's opened, even though I don't know what's on the other side, it's actually led to pretty amazing things. So for me, I think that's really helped me get through that, and that's a topic that often comes up with leaders and teams that I work with. So I can speak to it quite a bit and share some of the lessons learned, and specific things that I've done to help me get through it.

Dawn: I think it's really important, too — we do something called the I'm So Impressed List, but that record that you're talking about, this — you have this lifetime record of stepping into uncertain moments. Nothing is certain, really. And so knowing that you can pull on that, and know that you've done it and come out on the other side, sometimes even stronger, and sometimes with amazing experiences under your belt.

Jen Recla: Yeah. It's so — I think that's such a good demonstration of how that is looking at the gain and not the gap.

Dawn: So. What would you say self-trust looks like for you today, especially compared to earlier versions of yourself?

Jen Recla: Well, self-trust — part of self-trust for me is being a work in progress. I think early on, there was definitely more of a focus on perfectionism. Getting it right, making sure that every piece was in place, and it was well-received, quality was high, all of that. That is not something that I focus on now. Part of it certainly is the experience in Hollywood, and living up to an ideal that is just not realistic. Letting go of that in my 20s, and almost going to the complete other side. I've calibrated, I think, between perfectionism and just letting things completely go, where I'm recognizing that some things are going to be an A+, some things are going to be a C and good enough, and I will never stop growing. So trusting that I will always have the ability to get a little bit better each day, and whatever I messed up today — maybe I had a really rough conversation with my daughter, it didn't go well — the self-trust piece is, you know what, I'm going to have a chance to make that up. I'm going to have a chance to do better tomorrow. I do a workshop, nobody shows up — okay, I know that I'm going to do something again, I'm going to learn from this, and I'm going to get better. So I think that for me, that's what self-trust looks like.

Dawn: I love it, because it normalizes the not-great moment, or the unwanted, or the not-matching-our-ideal moments, which are inevitable. And so the key is knowing that the only true certainty is you and your ability to learn, adapt, and grow and move forward. So for someone listening who may feel that draw toward perfectionism, or feels stuck in the cycle of overworking, proving, or even trying to hold everything together — what would you want them to hear?

Jen Recla: We go through a rollercoaster in life. There are fits and starts, there are ebbs and flows. There are going to be moments where we feel like we are on the top of our game, and then there's going to be other times where we just need to reset, because we're not in a good place. 100% looks different every day, and that's okay. So I think leaning into some self-compassion. I know that it was hard for me when it didn't work out back in California many, many years ago, and moving back was really, really challenging. I had all of these dreams and they didn't work out, and now I'm following another dream. And so that's probably where some of these similar experiences I had then are coming up, because this feels like a big dream for me, and I don't want it to fail. I also know that whatever path this takes me is going to be the right path for me. So I think that it's just trusting that you're going to continue to make mistakes, you're going to continue to have days that are good and bad, and using those like a scientist, using those as data to figure out what's working, what's not. How can you get really curious about the days that are great? What are you doing differently than the days that it's not going so well? And let's keep moving forward on those bright spots to make things better. And there's always tomorrow. We got another chance.

Dawn: Yes. In every moment we have another chance. I love to break it down sometimes even to that, right? Like, I didn't do this one thing that — or this one thing didn't work out the way I wanted it to, and I can change that in the next moment with a new decision, or a different evaluation.

Jen Recla: Yeah. Absolutely.

Dawn: Tell us a little bit about your work now. What are you focused on? Who do you love helping the most?

Jen Recla: Yes. I love working with smaller to mid-size businesses. So most of the groups I've been working with have anywhere from 400 employees down to 11 employees. So I just love the smaller organizations, and I love working with senior leadership teams, because I really do think you've got to set the tone at the top. So I work with a lot of executive teams, senior leaders, and helping them to find the best ways to communicate, collaborate, stay cohesive. I love doing one-to-one coaching. I have a six-month program, and then I do a lot of team development work and leadership development workshops as well.

Dawn: So where can people connect with you, find out more about your work?

Jen Recla: Yeah. LinkedIn is a great place to find me. I do post regularly on there. So you can find me on LinkedIn, and then I have a website, jenrecla.com, and on that website I have a free tool. A lot of what I focus on too is around just navigating our workload, so that we can have that work-life integration and not feel overworked and burnt out, and I have a free tool on there. It's called "No Time To Think? Start Here!" and it's just a quick exercise that people can do to get time back on their calendar.

Dawn: Nice. Well, we will have those links in the show notes. So Jen, this conversation is such a powerful reminder that self-trust isn't just about taking bold leaps — though you've definitely made a few. Sometimes it's about trusting that you don't have to constantly prove your worth through exhaustion. And I think so many people are going to recognize themselves in this conversation, especially the part about learning to trust what you've already built. So thank you so much for being here and sharing this.

Jen Recla: Yeah. Appreciate that, Dawn.

Dawn: If today's conversation stirred something in you, I want you to take one next step before you close this episode. Go and take the Self-Trust Identity Map. Before strategy, before motivation, before more effort — you need to know where your identity is operating from, because that is what determines everything that follows. It's free, it takes three minutes, and it will give you a precise read on where you're operating from right now, and exactly where to focus next. The link is in the show notes. And if you're a coach or expert who already knows what's in the way, if you're done operating from almost and ready to claim the authority that actually moves your business forward, Claimed is my private six-month coaching container for exactly that. That link is in the show notes, too. Make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss what's coming. These stories are just getting started, and I'll see you next time.

Ready to know where your identity is actually operating from right now?

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